So it's so wonderful to see you, Peter. And needless to say, your work and your writing and your thinking in this space has been instrumental in the movement we have today in the United States and around the world in terms of protecting animals, preventing violence and unnecessary cruelty to other animals.


And what are your reflections of how things are going? I know you wrote Animal Factories in 1975. We are now in 2022. And what gets you excited? What are you sensing in the air?


Well, there's definitely a movement that is, I think, particularly more focused on being really effective and really making a difference for animals, and we are starting to see some ways in which that movement is making a difference for animals. So I'm excited by that. I'm also hoping that the development of alternatives to meat from animals and other animal products as well continues to make the progress it's been making.


So we'll have not simply tasty alternatives to animal products, but we'll have economically competitive alternatives to animal products. I think that's really important. But I am troubled, I have to say, by the fact that we're not making much impact on China in particular and some other places in Asia, where, if we just narrow our focus on Europe and perhaps particularly those states in the US that have passed ballot initiatives to protect farmed animals, that's good.


But if we think of China as continuing to grow its factory farm system with really no animal welfare protection, then I get very troubled. And I'm wondering what we can possibly do to reduce animal suffering there.


Yeah. What's interesting is how when nations become wealthier and have more power, they tend to eat more meat. In the US, we do this a lot. And, of course, China and India now, the economies are growing. I wonder if that correlation is a necessity or if there's a way for us as human beings to reshape.


Because with power, we've started doing more exploiting and consuming of animal products.


Sure. Yeah. So I think it's, to some extent, culturally dependent because I feel that India and China are still somewhat different. India has always had a concern for animals through its cultural traditions, and there have been a lot of vegetarians in India. And there is a strong animal movement in India.


But in China, there really is very little of that. You would think that the Buddhist tradition would create more concern for animals, but it doesn't seem to have had very much impact. And certainly, there isn't really an animal movement in China in the way that there is in India.


So I think that it really might be necessary to develop those alternatives to animal products that are hopefully healthier and certainly economically competitive in order to undercut that desire for more meat, as you're saying, as people get more prosperous. Without a really strong commitment to animal welfare, it's going to be hard to get change otherwise.


So it's more of a practical thing, that this is something I can eat instead of meat without really a whole lot of thinking necessary about the ethics? Is that how you're feeling? It's more of a machinery, a practical thing as opposed to a cultural, ethically oriented thing.


Yeah. Well, at least it's not necessary to persuade people to change their ethics. It might be that once they are no longer eating animals, it's easier for them to actually think more positively about animals. Because I think when people think what else would I eat, they have this natural reaction of saying, I don't want to hear about animal suffering. Don't tell me.


But if we get people anyway thinking, oh, there are all these other good things to eat, maybe it's going to be easier for them to change their attitudes too.


Yeah. That's what I often wrestle with. I'd love to think that people had conscience and didn't want to cause harm. But I also oftentimes have come to believe that, oftentimes, people will do what's convenient. And so I do really understand and appreciate and agree to a large extent with the point that making these products more accessible and affordable and tasty is going to play a big role.


And I wonder with sanctuaries. Because in some ways, sanctuaries are primarily about the ethics. They're very impractical when it comes to how much money is spent, but there's also some role sanctuaries play. But I wonder what, from your perspective, that might be.


So I hope they're playing an educational role in getting people to see animals as individuals and, in particular, to see farmed animals as individuals and farmed animals growing older, which they would not do under any other circumstances, and get them to see that what we're doing here is producing animals for short lives as commodities, not thinking of them as individuals at all. But they are. And we're doing this on a vast scale.


And we want people to say, I'm not going to be any part of that. And also, of course, to support ballot initiatives or whatever else you can do, depending where they live, to get their support for improvements in animal welfare.


Among the developments of the US, what are some of the most significant? Do you think ballot initiatives? Do you think the alternatives to meat? What are some of the things that excite you?


I think ballot initiatives have played an important role. And, of course, we're seeing that right now in the Supreme Court with the California Proposition 12 being looked at. I'm hopeful that we're going to have a positive advent there, but who knows? I do think the development of both plant-based and cultured alternatives to animal products is really important.


I'd like to see still more effort going into the politics in states. Because, of course, the ballot initiatives only exist in I think fewer than half the states of the US, right?


Mm-hmm.


So it really would be great if somehow you could do something to get federal legislation that made an impact. So far, I think we've always been thwarted by the amount of money that the animal exploitation lobbies are putting into Congress. And I think the US federal political system is much more influenced by money than, say, the European or the UK or the Australian. I think that's why Europe has got further in some of these issues than the US has.


But maybe there's a way of turning that around. If there's more money coming into the animal movement, then it might be possible to compete with some of these other lobbies.


Yeah. Well, we are hoping to do that actually in Washington, to try to take the billions of dollars that are being spent to bolster factory farming and start tilting some of that towards alternatives-- plant-based agriculture and a system that is healthy for animals, people, and the Earth. So that's a big part of what we're really trying to do right now.


So when you think about the future-- these are some of the things like the plant-based meats and things like that are going to maybe make a big difference. Does the animal movement-- what are its opportunities to work outside of the animal movement? Are there other entities, other aligned interests that might help join with us in ending factory farming?


Certainly. I think the most obvious one is the movement against climate change because I think people understand now in the way that they did not understand 20 years ago that meat is a major contributor to climate change, comparable to the entire transportation sector in its contribution to greenhouse gas emissions.


So I think the climate sector is certainly ready to work with the animal movement to reduce meat consumption. And the health sector I think is also aware of this now. There was the big Lancet EAT Commission that brought together a lot of scientists interested in global health and also planetary health.


And essentially, they were saying, if we want to have healthy populations of humans, a healthy planet, and-- they weren't really focusing on animal welfare, but they were really saying we need to cut down almost entirely on red meat consumption and processed meat consumption. And we need to drastically reduce other meat consumption as well.


So I think that's another good basis. And then because of the pandemic, people are more aware that factory farms are a place for generating new viruses. And about 70% of the new viruses that affect humans come from animals. So I think that's an important area. And also in public health, there's the antibiotic resistance we're getting from antibiotics being routinely fed to farm animals. And we're losing some of the most powerful weapons against bacteria that we have.


So I think there are a number of different areas that we can work with to combat consumption of animal products.


Yeah. Well, I have to say that you have been so generous with your time always, coming to this, doing this talk here. You've always been an amazing model of being kind and trying to make a difference and walking the talk. Thanks again for your time.


Great. Thanks, Gene.


Yeah, yeah.