Hello everyone. Welcome to Farm Sanctuary's inaugural Sanctuary Speaker Series event. Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Miko, and I am Farm Sanctuary's Manager Of Social Justice Programs. Today I am very excited to be in conversation with Dr. Breeze Harper who is an author, scholar, and anti-racism, diversity, and inclusion strategic consultant and trainer. She is known as the creator and of Sistah Vegan-- Black Female Vegans Speak On Food, Identity, Health And Society and is the author of the novel, Scars-- A Black Lesbian Experience In Rural White New England.
Dr. Harper uses applications of anti-racism, racial equity, and black feminism to explore how racial caste, gender, and capitalism impact and influence ethical consumption philosophies within a white settler nation, the United States. Her company, Critical Diversity Solutions, is a niche diversity and inclusion beauty consultancy that uses anti-racism, intersectionality, and racial justice to help clients become more inclusive and equitable.
She has a PhD from the University of California, Davis, a master's degree from Harvard University, and a bachelor's degree from Dartmouth College. Welcome, Dr. Harper, and thank you so much for taking the time to be a part of this conversation.
Thank you, Miko. I'm looking forward to talking, and exploring, and basically sharing with everyone what I've been doing.
Yeah, awesome. Yeah, and I especially appreciate being able to be in conversation with you, because five years ago, before I even got started with Farm Sanctuary, I read Sistah Vegan, and I attended your virtual conference, The Vegan Practice Of Black Lives Matter. And at that time, I was in a national service program traveling around the Pacific region of the United States working with diverse communities on a variety of projects and different issue areas.
And when I encountered your work, it gave me an understanding of veganism and the issues of our food system in a way that aligned with my understanding of systems of oppression and issues of injustice within our country more generally. Like the issues that I was working with these various communities. So it really supported me in developing a more holistic anti-oppression framework that understood these issues as part of a larger system. So it's really beneficial in my beginning of my journey and my work from Sanctuary here.
So I'm curious now, in conversation with you five years later, to hear more about what led you to organize the Vegan Practice Of Black Lives Matter back in 2015. What inspired you to do that?
That's a great question, and I can't say it was just one thing. It was probably the momentum built from the work I've been doing in terms of black feminism, racial justice, and applying that to not just the Sistah Vegan project, but just veganism and ethical consumption overall.
And what really sparked me to bring those ideas together in tandem with Black Lives Matter was basically I think the year before mostly white vegans on social media, they show that they really didn't understand systemic oppression. That they did not understand that the prison industrial complex is a prison industrial complex. That you will find anti-blackness in legislation and policies from back in the day that now still affect us.
What was really striking to me was-- it wasn't just me, but also Bryant Terry-- and we noticed that white vegans were making statements about Michael Brown's death and protests around that. And the consensus by a lot of them was that they would basically stand up for the rights of non-human animals. But these same people thought that if you don't adhere to the law, what would you expect if you do this to the police? Of course, are going to get shot. And why would you steal a cigar or whatever?
And it was really striking to me that there was this empathy for non-human animals, but there was no empathy for a child who had been shot. I don't care if he's 18, legally you're an adult-- he's a kid, he's a child. So it was just shocking to me. And then in tandem many white vegans were like, all lives matter, all lives matter. Not really understanding that mainstream society in the United States, they have not gotten the memo that still, Black Lives Matter.
And Black Lives have not mattered-- systemically, politically, economically, socially, historically, we live in a racialized caste system. That's going to affect everything we do, including those things that we do with the, quote unquote, "best intentions," like our ethical consumption, veganism. That's going to impact how we do it, it's going to shape the ways in which we understand any type of system.
So seeing those type of responses and then, in particular, there was a response on Twitter by the handle of a user, Vegan Revolution. I remember he had typed, apparently Black Lives Matter more than chickens, more than cows. Apparently.
That was very snarky, just very sarcastic. And it wasn't that he just said that but the plethora of likes and support that this person got. So clearly the white, vegan mainstream just does not understand this whole history, they don't understand the 13th. A lot more do now, because five years later, a lot have actually been watching it and not making those connections. But they just totally didn't get it.
And I was like, it's not antithetical to think that you can do veganism and black racial justice at the same time. So let's think about this. What would it mean for me to put something together with 15, 17 speakers from across all different sectors but are still vegan, and focused on black liberation, and support Black Lives Matter.
What would it look like if we showed that they are compatible? To actually be vegan and to censor black liberation and racial equity, that it actually bolsters it, that actually makes it more effective and more inclusive. So that's basically where that idea came from. So I also thought that I wanted to make it as accessible as possible. So to make it a physical location would be very difficult. And a lot more people would have access to it if it were online.
So it was an online event for two days. I offered scholarships that people couldn't attend it. And I know you didn't ask this question, but I wanted to get sponsors for this event, and it was very difficult to get sponsors for this event. And at the time, it was not trendy to be anti-racist, Black Lives Matter. When I did propose that I need sponsorship for this event, I was mostly met with [AUDIO OUT] --the political status quo is.
So that was interesting. I did get several sponsors, but there were numerous people who just didn't want to get involved. And you brought something up that's interesting, I should go back now and see if all of them have their Black Lives Matter statement. We support Black Lives Matter. And I'm thinking, should I actually ask them, I'm wondering, why now? Why not five years ago when not just myself, but other black and brown vegans that I know were trying to do stuff and get sponsorship or support. Why then was it too political? Why then did you just want to be neutral?
But now I see you've got those statements, and now you want to pretend that suddenly you're OK with this. Why did it take basically an apocalypse, a pandemic that exacerbated the racial and equities that are already there for you to suddenly post publicly that you now support it?
Yeah, it's a very good question. And I want to talk about the relevance of the vegan praxis of Black Lives Matter today, but I also want to hear a little bit more about 2015, the format of that, and what some of the main takeaways you felt came from that conference back then. It's also just interesting to think about this virtual conference that you had taken place in 2015, and now we're in the world of 2020 where everyone's doing all these virtual conferences. But just realizing how important that accessibility piece is. But just generally, what the format of that was and some of core takeaways.
Yeah, so one are the core takeaways I thought was when we had a presenter named Hnin. She talked about the intersections of the prison industrial complex and the way laborers are exploited. So the 13th Amendment means basically a penitentiary can contract with a company, and the inmates can basically work for almost free, dollars a day. And build a wealth of mostly white light the industry leaders.
So she showed an image of a black man who was milking a cow and really showed you know these interlocking systems of oppression. That we've got this cow who is being subjugated and exploited by a capitalist, racist, speciest system. Then you've got this black man incarcerated, and we know that black men are six times more likely to be incarcerated than white people for the same or lesser offense.
So all of that wrapped up in there, right there, and I think that was the big takeaway for a lot of our participants who were still there because they wanted to support this idea that, I want to understand how Black Lives Matter is meaningful to veganism. But that was a very strong points for many people when they contacted me after giving me feedback. That they could finally see those connections.
And just to become more literate around, well, I didn't even know what the 13th was. And I really thought that if you just abided by the law-- but just seeing how it's been orchestrated and strategized for decades to continue the wealth of the elite through the exploitation of not just black, brown indigenous people or incarcerated and retired, than white folk. But also seeing that connection with how animals are exploited and that was profound for a lot of people. Like whoah.
And then to bring out even more to home was it Liz Ross's keynote address, and she's a black identified woman vegan, and she used to be a law enforcement officer. And she had said when she read the book, The New Jim Crow she said that was one of the reasons why she left the force. So her giving that keynote talk to really talk about Black Lives Matter, understanding that the New Jim Crow, the 13th Amendment, the high amounts of incarceration.
That was a strong point, again, for our participants and for myself to just start making those connections and really understanding the system, and the components, and the gears that are spinning in terms of the prison industrial complex, capitalism, the way ingredients are sourced, specism, and making those connections. So that was a profound takeaway, those are the two things that I think were one of the most profound takeaways for the participants and for myself.
And so now thinking about 2015 and those takeaways, and what was talked about at that conference, what do you see the relevance of those takeaways being now? But also just a general idea of a big praxis of Black Lives Matter? What do you see that relevance being today?
I think it's more relevant than ever, and I see a lot of this in terms of public statements and organizations that normally were not doing it are now either doing it in terms of cosmetic diversity, or they're actually doing it because they're taking it seriously. So I have received-- because I'm on a lot of lists are focused on veganism, or animal rights, or animal advocacy-- within the last three months, especially the first week of June 2020, a lot of newsletters and emails coming out saying that we support Black Lives Matter, we're anti-racist, we're focused on racial equity.
So I'm seeing that, so that's what you're saying, but then I'm like, but what are you doing? So what I'm seeing now is there is this realization that yes, Black Lives Matter, that's completely different from All Lives Matter. So we understand that, we're getting the memo, but then how do we integrate it? So what I'm seeing now is there is some commitment, depending on who you talk to. It's unclear if they understand what that commitment means, it's unclear if they understand when you do center Black Lives Matter and also other minoritized racial groups matter, that you need to divest away from whiteness. That you've been investing in, whether consciously or unconsciously, over the past 450 years.
I think that's where we are is. Right now everyone's at the book club, let's read about it, and it's all in your head. And I'm talking to you everyone as in the white racial status quo. It's all in our heads, the title of a book, let's have a conversation about race. That's what I keep on saying. But we've been having a conversation for decades now, we've been trying to have it, we need to do action. And then not just superficial action-- what is Black Lives Matter racial equity look like as a structural change, dismantling.
So that's where we are. I've been doing this forever as a professional, and now I've had a huge uptick in work. Like 12 times more work than I've ever had since the end of May, which shows something is gaining momentum. But is it a movement that's here to stay or is it a moment? Focusing on racial equity more or less because of the protests against the violence via other police directed toward black people, and we're doing Black Lives Matter now. Is it just a moment?
And I'm giving this class called, Becoming An Anti-racist Leader, I gave a first course in July. And it was received very well. It was very basic, but what I got a sense is that most of the participants were white or non black, and just the questions, but what do? How do I do it? What do I do? I don't know what to do, and what does it mean to divest in whiteness? And what does it mean to do this or that?
So everyone's at the beginning level, so it's this challenge to oneself to really shift paradigms. To literally decolonize one's mind. It's a struggle, it's really hard, I cannot conceive of this, what would it look like? And then there's the fears, there's the anxiety, there's the shame. Which great, those are valid emotions, but it's not productive.
And so there seems to be lots of fear like, ooh, how far down the rabbit hole do I want to go if I'm talking about, I want to be truly anti-racist as a the white person?
Right.
What am I really willing to give up? That's really scary. It's easy to read books, it's easy to post memes, it's easy to go and listen to TV talks. But what are you going to do internally? And how can you understand that Black Lives Matter is not white genocide. It's doesn't mean white lives don't matter. How can we shift and understand that within the context of animal advocacy and veganism that we live in a racialized caste system.
So when you are born into caste, you're fragmented. I don't care if you're the dominant class or you've been subjugated. It's a fragmentation. So how is it that I can understand Black Lives Matter as a way to dismantle the racial caste system and to be wholly human, fully human, even as a white person. Because a lot of times it's always focused on black indigenous people of color as being fragmented. But there isn't enough conversation to talk about the fragmentation of white people and the lack of consciousness around the trauma, the stress, the anxiety-- all that stuff it takes to maintain whiteness. All that stuff.
Like us, BIPOCs, we collectively understand that component, but it's white folk-- especially the more liberal, progressive whether they're an animal advocacy or not-- I talk to them, and they're like, I was raised in a household where you I don't, quote unquote, "see color," we're all equal. We don't talk about it. And now we're talking about it, but you don't realize the whole process of maintaining whiteness is actually traumatic. A different type of trauma, but it's traumatic. And it's informed the way you've done everything. Including how you engage in veganism, how you engage in animal rights.
And that's where I am right now, where I'm trying to understand how those worlds collide with Black Lives Matter, and then me as a white person, how do I divest from that, and then I'm in an organization or a company that does veganism, and we're cruelty free, and we're supposed to be ethical. We're all about colliding. And we're all new. In the United States we never did--
Like South Africa has, is it called the Truth And Reconcilliation-- I can't remember the exact wording, but on a national level. United States haven't even thought about doing that on a national level. So we've got hundreds of years of trauma, we've got all this stuff happening. We're talking a lot more with BIPOCs. With white folk, no, we're not talking about it. We're not even addressing or understanding, like, the somatic. It's still up in our heads with the book stuff.
So there's just how I'm seeing the last five years now. This is what it is-- no more conversation, no more books, let's do the dismantling, divestment in whiteness, and let's actually even approach this-- it's controversial-- from a trauma informed framework. So what does that look like as a white person?
And then you start talking, and some people, they're uncomfortable. So divesting in whiteness means that I may not advance in a job the way that I thought I was going to. Or the ways in which we are going to think about who our board members are going to be? If you're for profit, we've got to think about how our money is being invested and who invested enough?
Actually maybe we shouldn't even, even though they can give us $5 million, I realize they're invested in other things that actually take away from racial equity. So we have to peel back the layers of what that means. And I understand that, because whiteness is privilege and access to resources, and money, and power. So it's not just thinking about your organization, but the things that have kept your organization alive-- practices and policies that have kept racial inequities alive. When you divest from that, where that leave you as an organization or a leader?
So all that stuff, and that's where we are right now. And I am hesitant in thinking that all of this is happening. Oh, we're going toward this new path of liberation for all. I don't know, I think collectively a lot of white people are not ready to let go of that.
Yes. I'm appreciating all of what you're talking about and really wanting this to be a space in which you are sharing exactly what you're sharing and saying all of those things. So I'm asking these questions, but it's really me putting forward this question, stepping out of the way, you're saying all of the things. And if you see me looking down, I'm just writing down things that I'm wanting to catch and hold on to that are really important. But a couple of things-- I was actually in that training that you're just did-- and absolutely, the questions are really illuminating, because they show how people are thinking about these things, how people are processing these things. And how much this really is a fundamental shift we're talking about. This is just shaking things up and in a way that we have to be thinking about things in a very different way.
How do I do this? We've been working and operating this way for so long in such a fundamental, and now we're doing things differently. So what does that look like, just that process? Also how you talked about using this trauma informed framework I think is really interesting, because absolutely, of course, folks of color getting impacted. But what is the traumatic effect and impact for everyone who's been having to live within this condition to function within all of this? Just thinking about that impact.
And you're talking about your work and the work that you do as a DEI consultant and strategist, and so I'm curious too just a to hear more about that work. How you support people in that process, what that looks like, some of the key issues that you and your business partner work on when you're working with organizations and kind of just like guiding people and doing that work?
Yeah, so we started off doing niche boutique consulting. Like were they focusing on animal advocacy, vegan-oriented organizations, and for profit. Over the last two years we've really branched out that whether it's veganism or a financial industry, it's literally all the same types of challenges. It may look slightly different, but we're just getting the same basic themes.
So what we usually do is we assess an organization, we talk about what their needs are based on what they've provided, it's almost always white leadership that come to us. We can't recruit and retain talented people of color. We, for instance, will conduct things like a racial equity audit, which means-- a lot of organizations will first come to us and say, we just need a training, we need a workshop. Can you teach us about anti-racism in two hours? No joke. And they mean well, but can you learn about anything deeply in two hours?
That's why when I went to college for a specific degree I was there fore four years, just like the first degree, the bachelor's one. So one of the things we do is we say to them, OK, so we will work with you, but we want to know if your ethics and values are aligned with ours. So that's the first thing. First of all, we don't work with people, organizations where we get a sense that they are just for cosmetic diversity and/or they just have done stuff that we consider is unethical. So we're not going to work like we're not going to work with Purdue.
We are vegan and cruelty free. We're focused on that. So that's one of the things that we do. So we talk to them, most people contact us because they want a training from us. So we explain to them systemically, this is why training is not going to work. You have to approach this in terms of a whole system, so a training and a workshop is one of them. No, we cannot do it in two hours. We recommend at least a full day, eight hours. And then we also recommend that we look at your board, we look at your website materials, other literature.
We do a critical race, feminist content analysis of your work. And that means that we're not just looking at race but it's intersectional. So race is usually centered with our work, but we're trained to really understand how gender, ability, national status or citizenship status, all that stuff, is reflected in the materials that you have. So how can we make that more inclusive? We explain to them for things like, we don't do equality, we do equity. So making sure we're all on the same language by what we mean.
You say you want to be more diverse and you want to be more inclusive and belonging, so let's talk about that language. What do you mean by that? This is what we mean by in terms of systems. And then there's the strategic planning. So once they realize they're not going to get this done in a week, because it took 400 years to build, we you need a strategic plan or maybe they have what a thinking in their mind that we need a strategic plan. So we want to make sure that our board and this animal advocacy group has this amount of people of color by whatever whatever.
OK, that's great. Let's look at the way you describe your goals, let's look at the way you even put out your description for candidacy for a board. So we do the assessment, and we'll sit down and look through a description. And we'll say, oh, that's interesting. So you require the candidate to have this skill set or this expertise. Well, the way you framed it here, those words, the connotation is usually white and upper class. So let's try to think about the ways in which we put language together and the racial, gender and class connotations they have.
And it's hard for our clients to really understand that until they at least first take a basic training and get that very basic literacy. So what we do is we don't do stuff for them, we work together so we can grow together and they can learn. So maybe within one or two years they can be at a literacy level where they can start doing those changes on their own. So maybe they didn't notice that two years ago, but now that I'm putting together this new marketing campaign, I realized I shouldn't use this word, or I shouldn't use these images, because clearly it's going to exclude 90% of the world.
So getting to that point where they gain that literacy and they can work on their own to do that. We also do surveys. So you as a leader may think that your animal rights organization or your vegan company is fine and everyone's cool. But you don't know what type of questions to ask, because you're not literate in the language of racial equity and racial justice. So we do surveys, qualitative and quantitative data, and depending on how big the company is, if there's different sites or locations, we'll tailor that survey.
Because that's what we ask organizations to understand, you can't make changes without data. How do you get the data? You have to ask the right questions. You can't ask the right questions if you're not literate in the language of racial equity and intersectionality. So we build those for them, and then we ask the board, volunteers, and their paid staff to take those surveys. And then we take that data, we see themes, we see red flags, there's going to be lots of red flags usually. But then we'll try to organize what is priority.
So we'll pick out the first one or two things that we can start honing in on. It's usually job descriptions, recruitment and retention, it's almost always recruitment and retention issues. And we work with them, that's the plan. And we take that data, and we look at that, and we make suggestions, that's what we do. And it's pretty exciting work.
And we've worked with, in the past several years, we've worked with pretty big named animal advocacy and or vegan-oriented organizations or companies. So it's been very exciting. And I know you didn't ask this, but a few that had contacted us before, they had good intentions but they really didn't get it. And they were kind of like, OK, we're done, we just did the training, and we're done. And we were like, OK, but I was thinking, no, this is not done.
So I can't force anyone to understand what I'm trying to stay, I, can only give them the information, and then when they're ready, they'll be able to synthesize it and realize OK, yeah, I kind of screwed that up three years ago. Now we're ready to take that next step where we're going to actually dive into it, commit to these changes systemically and structurally.
And I think it's the way things have been moving and changing the last three months. There are a lot of people who are like, we want to work with you, and it comes off as, even though they want to do more than training, it feels like I think this is still going to be some type of like wokeness badge to put on their thing. But then there are other companies that we're working with, organizations, where it's clear they're really committed to it. You can just sense it, you can feel it.
So that's where we are right now. And the thing is, we're just talking about Black Lives Matter. That said, there's so much more. And this is like all anti-racism 1.0. There is also talking to non-black and white, especially non-black communities, about anti-blackness. So there's just so many layers to that. And then beyond that, talking about other oppressive things.
So for a lot of people it becomes overwhelming. Oh my God, we're just trying to focus on Black Lives Matter. Now you're bringing up ablism, or now you're bringing up this stuff. So it can be a little daunting, but what we do with our organizations that we work with is we try to take it piece by piece. You're not going to do everything overnight. The point is that you're constantly working toward, working toward. So as long as you're consciously taking these steps and you're working toward, working toward, that's what you need to focus on. Not some end all be all goal where, we're going to be here 100% with ability, with language, with age, with everything by 2027.
It's not going to happen, things are always changing. It's being consciously aware of how you integrate all that, what steps you need to take to start moving toward it. So that's how we work with our clients. People get anxious, because we're in this quick fix culture. No, it took 450 years to build this entire thing. You may not see the changes you want in your lifetime, but just start on some type of path with actual action and structural changes. Do the best that you can, make your commitment, but don't hold on to some end all, be all ultimate goal, because you're just setting yourself up for a life of misery. [AUDIO OUT] did that differently like 20 years ago.
Right.
But that's how we work with them. We work with them that way. And no shaming, no judgment, with some exceptions. We don't advocate Cancel Culture, because we've all done things out of ignorance. But we need a climate where we can grow and not be scared to ask those questions. People will sincerely ask me, mostly white, can you tell me why it's problematic for me to talk about black people enslaved as the same as a cow being enslaved? Some people are scared to ask that question, that someone told me that was racist, but I really don't know what the problem is.
We provide a climate where we are not judgmental. And I can talk to you about a different framing of that, I can explain to you from a racial equity standpoint why that is a problem right now and why doesn't go off very well with mostly non-white people. So this is the history of race in America, this is the history of animal lives and certainly human beings, all this stuff. So I can share that with you, you have the information, what you choose to do with it is out of my control.
I'm not going to judge you as an individual, but we step back and we take it from a holistic, historical, institutions versus just calling some individual person, well, you're are a racist, well you're a homophobe, you're a sexist. Everyone shuts down. And that's one of my things right now when we're talking about-- whether it's animal advocacy and veganism-- there are different ways to frame how to engage in racial equity and justice. And one of the things that I don't necessarily agree with is when people say, well, all white people are racist. And even when white people say it.
I don't think that's productive right now. I like the word racialized consciousness. I think that's far more effective and what that basically means is when you have a white, racialized consciousness, as a white person-- and some people who are people of color or have been predominately influenced by white racist structures-- is that your consciousness-- the way you think, the way you do things, the way you navigate the world-- has been influenced by white, racist structures. That's all it means.
So most people are not even consciously aware of it. So that's why I would like to say that most white people have white racialized consciousness or racialized consciousness that affect the way they think they're being objective.
Right, right.
Professor Arnold Farr, he's one of the few black philosophers in the United States. You know, he also is the reason why, maybe 10 years ago, that I decided to stop saying "all white people are racist," or "you're being racist." Unless someone literally-- I mean, there are some-- clearly, there's some things where it's clear. But for most people who come to me who are white I say, yeah, that's because you have white racialized consciousness. And this is what I mean by it.
Right.
So that's-- it's so deeply impactful in how you decide to put together your vegan organization. Are you-- how you sold that vegan cheese.
Right.
So that's how-- that's how I try to frame it and try to talk to my clients. Because it is-- I'm not saying it's the same level of consequences, though it can be. You can lose your job or something. But, you know, white people don't want to be-- I don't think white people want to be called racist and then be more open to kind of learning more. I think it can be a triggering-- not triggering. It can be a shut down word for a lot of white people. Who are-- I mean, unless they're--
I mean, I don't actually know if a KKK member would consider themselves a racist or if they just, I just have white pride and I want to protect my white people. Like, I don't even know if they use that word.
Right.
Some of them.
But I think, when we start talking about consciousness, when we start talking about the ways in which we're influenced by structures and systems, versus just saying, you know, I know you're vegan and you're white, but you're a racist and this is why. Most people shut down.
Like if someone comes to me and says-- in my earlier days, you know, Breeze, when you say something is retarded, you're an ableist. You're a moron. You're an ableist. You know? Of course I'm going to shut down. Of course I'm not going to listen. Even though it was wrong for me to-- of course it's horrible for me to say the word "lame" or "retarded."
Right.
So that's how I kind of think about it, when I work with the clients, from that perspective. Is that, what made me shut down even though I knew that person was right? You know? What made me--
Because you're-- I think people aren't trying-- I think a lot of people are not trying to negate reality. But it's like, it's hurtful. Because you think, all this time, especially as a vegan, that I really am embarking on something that I think is trying to alleviate cruelty and suffering.
Right.
Now you're telling me that I'm a racist? You know? Like, of course, that in itself can be traumatizing. So--
Yeah.
Yeah, so with that, around the language that I try to use, I try to use language that is to hold you accountable but is also compassionate and mindful, but also asks you to strive to move forward. And I think there is a great analogy where, you know, some people, we're all-- like we're all in this body of water. And, you know, some people are on a speedboat moving really fast toward that direction. Where other-- maybe someone else is in a paddle boat moving-- but they're slowly moving toward that direction.
So I try to kind of look at it that way and not be too frustrated if someone doesn't get something immediately.
Yeah.
This is your timeline, and this is what you need. And maybe, you know-- eventually, we're all going to-- eventually, we're kind of heading toward, hopefully, the same goal of alleviating the suffering and misery of all beings.
Right.
Personally, I'm just striving for racial equity because it's hard for human beings to be at their fullest to do the work for non-human animals when, like, the system for human beings is already, you know, it's disenfranchising and inequitable for most of the-- most folks of color and working class people, poor people in the United States. Right?
Yeah. Again, I mean, I'm appreciating and just taking in all of the things that you're saying. And in your approach, I mean, you're also a fiction writer. And I know that's an important component of how you go about doing your racial equity training, as well. You incorporate this empathic storytelling.
So could you talk more about why you do that and how you feel that that's important in helping people to make these connections?
Yeah. So, I mean, if I could, I would read theory all day. But not everybody enjoys theory. Like, I love that deep theory stuff.
But, you know, it doesn't really connect to the heart. And it's very abstract. So I can just tell you. I started writing books when I was eight. I wrote my first book when I was eight, and it was a hot mess. I don't even remember it. But my mom was like, just keep on going! I don't know what you're writing about, but you seem passionate about it.
And then the first day of seventh grade, someone called me the n-word-- all white school system with the exception of my twin brother and I. And I just remember how deeply hurtful it was. And I don't-- my peers just really never understood that. My teacher never understood why I didn't want to read Huckleberry Finn because of the use of the n-word like over 200 times.
So I was like, well, obviously all the theory and the reports and the research-- you know, the data's there. It tells you that there's something off. But there's something about just dry data and reports that are not actually affecting the heart of human beings.
So I thought to myself, you know, I really love writing. So why don't I write? Why don't I do that? But write in a way that is-- fiction that integrates black feminisms and racial equity, racial justice, Black history, all of that. And then intersectional.
Right.
So I wrote my book Scars because I really wanted people to understand the struggles of this one person who is this black lesbian teenager in rural white New England, what it means to be in a rural area. Youth development, but she's also working class and really struggling economically. She's in the closet with all these intersections.
And it was there-- like those who ended up reading the block were like, wow, this was really well done. I really felt what you were focusing on. And I really focused on trauma. Not just with like her, but one of the white, more financially privileged characters, a gay guy, you know, the trauma he didn't realize he had as being this white, financially privileged guy in the United States and what that meant, and kind of what that denied in terms of his full humanity.
So those are the type of stories that I like to put together. And then when I started my consulting firm I'm like, OK, well, you know, I understand the theory and all the data. But how can I get my clients to understand on an empathetic level?
So I took that artistic craft that I have. And when I give these trainings, the first two sections usually are-- it's history, theory, definitions. And then I take all of that and I put that into-- hopefully-- an entertaining, heart centered story. About, you know, a character who is usually part of a minoritized racial group. Which I did for this last training I did for anti-racism leadership, to really understand that person's world-- not just in the workplace, but also beyond. Not just as an individual, but all the systems that are unequal, or inequitable-- political system, educational system, food system. How that impacts their lives, everything.
And it's there where a lot of my clients, people have taken my classes. They're like, wow, that really hit it.
So that, and I also gave a workshop called Lulu and the Lobster. Which I think was in 2019, January. It was online. Because I got a lot of-- still, the same thing, even after the vegan praxis of Black Lives Matter. Mostly white people not understanding how anti-blackness operates in animal advocacy. And anti-blackness beyond what you see, which is either someone calling the police on a black family having a barbecue in the park. Or, you know, a police officer killing somebody because of their quote unquote "Negro phobia." Right?
So what does it look like on many different levels? Yeah, not for the quote unquote-- for this particular story. You know, it was-- I like to focus on-- and there's different ways to live black, to be black. Right? So many different ways. There is a lot of focus on urban and low income. And I was like, is there where we can think about this for this particular story. We have a black family. Both of the parents have PhDs or a doctorate. They're living in one of the whitest, wealthiest communities or counties in the United States, or in California, which is Marin County. And they have a dog rescue thing. And the husband-- there's a wife and a husband. And the wife, she has a PhD in something. I can't remember even though I wrote the story. But it was focused on Michael-- just understanding Michael Vick and all that stuff.
Her husband is a veterinarian, top veterinarian surgeon. And they have a dog rescue. Right? So I thought was really important to write a story-- well, they've got it all. They have it all materialistically. But look at how anti-blackness still affects this family. And look at the ending and what this means.
Right.
I read that story so many times, whether it's a keynote address, or elaborating on it more and having interactive exercises. My clients are like, oh my god, I didn't even know this. These are the connections I never made. And I don't think-- they didn't make it with definitions, or history, or the theory.
But putting that story together, I don't just read in like a dry voice. I act it out. So I'm acting out the characters' voices. I want people to feel-- like when the character Lulu is pregnant and she's crying, you don't even know she's pregnant, and she's clearly worried about the future of her black son because of what happened at her work that day. Because she called out someone for being racist by posting something about Michael Vick, which clearly had nothing to do with his dog abuse. It was more about their sentiments around black men and the anti blackness was there.
So she's crying, and you realize that she's dealing with this at work as one of the only black people who's fighting and doing animal advocacy for, I think they're focused on dogs. But no one gets it. She's-- microaggressions at work. But it's not just at work. She's pregnant, right? She's worried about the future of her own black children, her old black son.
And, you know, so they're doing this. They're doing the vegan work. They're doing all that work that the white vegan animal world wants them to do, but there's still anti-blackness. They still have to deal with it, even though they, quote, unquote, "made it." And that's why I thought that story was so important because of this mythical trope or narrative that, well, if black people just got their degrees and just went to school and got an education and kept their jobs, then-- you know, like, OK, well, they did it and still. So? You know? So I'm kind of being silly, but-- and that's basically, like I can--
And that's where people-- like a lot of my clients, it was really great to have them say, I got it. That or reading Scars and having them question more and talk about it more.
Right.
And so that's why it's so important when I give those workshops is, you know, now-- you can do it all in your head. You can understand intellectually. But how do we move it to the heart? And it seems sometimes corny for those who think it's a little-- you know, it's a little too wishy-washy. But no, like, people have been moved by reading these certain models, right? Listening to certain songs, watching certain movies. Like just been really moved in a way when you read, you know, Michel Foucault, that you may not be. Because I had to read him for Dartmouth College, and I was like, this isn't moving me. This is not moving. How can I turn those philosophies into some of the stuff in fiction and get people to really understand? So to answer your question, so that's why I do it. And I'm working on my third book. It's called Seeds of Sankofa, and it's Afrofuturism.
So a lot of my work questions-- which a lot of white vegans mostly say is, if the future were vegan, then everything would be OK. Right? It would just trickle down or trickle up, whatever. And then it would dismantle all systems of oppression. So yes, eye roll, whatever.
But I was like, OK, so I'm going to-- I'm going to challenge you on that one by writing this book. So say we have a plant based future. We don't know why it happened. We're still trying to figure out the narrative. But we still have capitalism. And if we understand the history of capitalism, it really cannot exist without systems of oppression.
Right.
The construction of racism that makes you understand Black Marxism by Dr. Robinson. You know, he takes the basic philosophies in Marxism to task by saying, I know you guys kind of forgot the whole construction of a racial caste system, even before we got to like, you know, Virginia-- what would be Virginia-- the first ship that had enslaved Africans. That has been in existence to maintain capitalism, right?
So my book is like, OK, so here's this future. And the planet is plant based. But there's still capitalism, and there's still anti-blackness and other forms of anti-indigeneity.
So it's a planet, the future. And it's 2020, but it's also 20 years in the future. So you've got the protagonist of this black woman who is a vegan in the Bay Area with four kids. Not me. And she has special gifts. And, you know, just really trying to figure all of that out-- the tech, technocracy, food tech, vegan tech, and all this stuff happening without racial equity in mind.
And there's a move that's made in the book where it becomes not just plant based, but cannabis, hemp based economy. But, you know, how do we get to the level we're going to build this? Well, the 13th amendment. And lots of stuff going down-- riots and protests. I was writing it before I even knew COVID was going to happen, which is kind of scary. You know, some type of-- something happened, some type of virus happened. A lot of the population didn't make it, and those who didn't like the way things were-- black and brown people rioting, blah, blah, blah. And the government like that.
So if you're not for us, then we're going to incarcerate you. We're going to make you build a new green economy, which is going to be ethical. Because now the new plant based future is this or that. But it's still going to uphold white wealth.
So that's how I look at that. Like I just like-- you can totally have a fully plant based future. But if you do not dismantle capitalism and find alternatives and, you know, center racial equity, then this is what the future of the hemp industry, cannabis, and a plant based future will look like.
So that's what I'm writing. I've written 50 pages so far. Those who've read it they're like, wow, this is really awesome. It's like my dissertation but like in the form of future-- Afrofuturism fiction. With like four amazing black women and girl characters.
Yeah.
And I'm like so excited to just do that as another way for people to feel-- understand what I said in the workshop. If like, you know, how to be anti-racist isn't enough or whatever, hopefully this narrative, this kind of empathetic storytelling, hopefully that will get you to understand what is at stake.
Mhm. Mhm. And you said the name of that forthcoming book is Seeds of Sankofa?
Yeah, and Sankofa, it means looking back-- like looking back by looking forward. So don't-- so don't forget the history of the past and how it can or cannot inform the future. So and the main character's name is Sankofa.
Love it. Awesome. Yeah. And then I've also seen you-- in talking about this racial equity work-- I've also seen you mention a preference for anti-racism in action as opposed to ally. So could you talk about what you see the distinction being and why you feel like that distinction is important?
Yeah. I feel like, in terms of racial equity and anti-racism-- and this is focused more on white folk with good intentions. Like it's easier to say you're an ally. But ally feels like, well, it's kind of this choice that you make. And I don't really want-- it's something that you-- you've chosen to do, but at any point, you can just kind of not do it anymore because whatever. It's like it's just kind of a side thing.
But like when I say anti-racism in action, it means you're just doing it all the time. Not because you want to be an ally, or because it's a side hobby. It's literally something that you're doing.
So you should not be an ally. You should be part of it without saying you're an ally. It may look different because you're white and a different history. But it's something period. Anti-racism in action. So like it has to be an act continuously. You're always doing it, thinking about it. You know, changing yourself internally but also making external changes. Action, action, action.
You can read all the books in the world about it and join book clubs and stuff and, you know, do black out Tuesday. Is that what it's called? Can't remember. I'm losing track of all the different memes. But what I want you to do is not think of yourself as an ally. You're part of this problem and the solution too. So you should be doing anti-racism in action. That's what they should.
Now I know-- it's kind of, you know, it's a controversial subject. You know, ally versus other things. But that's how I kind of think of ally. I just-- it just doesn't bode well with me because of that. Is not something that you should choose as an option. That's something you should be doing.
Right. Right. Got it. Yeah.
And so in 2016, kind of shifting to other work that you do that you've also done, you collaborated with the executive director of an organization called FoodFirst to create a report about how systemic racism operates in the food system and the need to dismantle it. So could you talk a little bit about what that project and some of the findings there? Could you talk a little bit about that?
Yeah, basically, it was more of a project work. Because a lot of people-- in FoodFirst, they focus on all different eating systems. Not veganism or vegetarianism. But I came in as a collaborator, coming more from a background where I understand food system is racist. And most people don't understand, what do you mean by that? So really understanding the history of the present, things like land grabbing, right? And understanding things like the Farm Bill and how it's never really-- it's only really supported white people. But even white farmers still struggle, right? They're struggling.
Just understanding the ways in which the food system works. So, you know, migrant laborers is mostly from South and Central America, Mexico. You know, how that-- in itself, the ways things and policies have been structured to exploit that labor.
So really just understanding all of the intricate pieces of the food system. And for me it was important because a lot of vegans think, well, you know, I'd rather watch-- I'd rather watch someone harvesting strawberries than watching someone slaughter a chicken. That's why I'm vegan. I'm like, OK, have you actually seen the conditions of the tens of thousands of people that are harvesting strawberries that are supposedly cruelty free?
And this is why the conditions are-- because of the ways in which the system is racist and capitalist. And this is why. So that report really-- it gets people to really understand what you mean by, the food system is racist. What do you mean by that?
So understanding-- you know, from the-- what's called from farm to table, you know? What does that look like when we're talking about systemically racist in the policies or practice?
So that's why that report was really-- really, really, really important. And to kind of define what we mean by racism.
Right.
Applied to food. So I wrote it such a long time ago. I can't-- I just remember like, overall, that was what was really important to me, was understanding the systemic-- but also things like-- I don't like food desert. I like the word food apartheid. So, you know, understanding things like that.
And I say-- this is maybe the last five years. Food desert-- just kind of the connotation of a desert is naturally occurring, but no. Use food apartheid. Because apartheid actually means that it's been-- you know, it's been orchestrated. It's strategic, right? So a human being did it for a purpose of control and power. Whereas when you say food desert, a lot of people don't even understand the history of, you know, how food-- the food system has been used to disenfranchise and control.
So when we place that with apartheid, then that history is made visible. Just things like that.
Yeah.
So that was a cool collaboration. I also collaborated with them before writing that to give a basic training around-- on the whiteness in the food system. That collaboration kind of, I think, spurred the next project, which was to co collaborate on, let's do a background reporter on-- and start off with, you know, racism in the food system.
Unfortunately, we didn't do more because-- I think I got pregnant again. Yeah. When I had my fourth child, I was like, I'm so busy. I started a new job. But yeah.
They do good work. The FoodFirst-- they're very good at what they do. And I encourage people to look at their work to really understand racism in the food system, but also a lot of focus on land-- the impact of gentrification and land grabbing. So part of my book, Seeds of Sankofa, if we're going to scale out hemp production to be-- like this plant based future where we use hemp, then whose land will be taken? It's historically what has always happened, right? Whose land is taken, and then who's forced to work on the land? So those are the things that I draw from with my learning from FoodFirst, is my concept of land grabbing and gentrification and all that stuff and how it impacts always minoritized racial groups. So that's pretty much 2016.
And is that accessible-- still available for people to access?
It's a free download. If you go to foodfirst.org, and if there's a search function, like background or report, just type in "dismantling racism in the food system."
OK.
And FoodFirst-- and FoodFirst is one word. Yeah. So you can make that available.
Yeah, and a lot of people-- most people who have read it are like, wow, this is very, very helpful.
Right.
It was really powerful to make those connections. And I think that's what-- I just can't emphasize enough, between FoodFirst's work and the Food Empowerment Project, for vegans-- mostly white vegans, who have had easy access to their entire life and never been food insecure, it's just vital for this demographic, if they're truly committed to cruelty free, to expand that beyond non-human animals and really expand what that means to human beings as well.
Right.
They're not going to understand why strawberries can be just as cruel, under different conditions, than, you know, slaughtering chickens for food. Like if you-- I remember somebody had posted that. You know, I'd rather look at strawberries. I'm like, do you understand the life of a migrant worker? Do you understand-- right now--
Actually, I don't even know if it's understood why. I mean, they're being slammed with COVID-19. Well, why is that? Because a lot of them live where-- first, you're working on there without proper protection equipment, right? And they're just so much happening. You know, a lot of folk, they don't have access to running water. Stuff to clean your hands after taking a poop or whatever. Like all this stuff, it's just like-- it blows my mind, right? So of course you're going to be the most vulnerable if a pandemic hits.
And I had proposed to certain vegans-- and even if you just want to be selfish because you want to keep getting your vegan food, think about it that way. You know? If, you know, folk aren't there to pick your food-- "your food" I put into quotations because it's always, like, possessive versus other words. Then what are you going to do?
Right.
They're getting slammed so badly.
Yeah.
So there's just this lack of awareness of-- you know, COVID-19 is a virus. But the pandemic of racism has been happening for hundreds of years. And now COVID-19 has shown-- it's just shown everything to a lot of mainstream people who never ever-- didn't know, you know?
Yeah.
That really bothers me right now. And the work at the Food Empowerment Project by Lauren Ornelas, you know, she's been saying this for ever. And no one listens to her because-- not no one, but those who should be listening aren't listening because they're invested in capitalism. Because she's not just-- she's just focused on farm workers' rights. They're pro-vegan, but they also question capitalism. Like, you can't get funding for that. You're not going to have anyone listening. But it's not like she's saying anything new.
Right.
And she's-- they don't get the support that they need. But they're doing it. They're doing the work. But they-- I mean, they struggle. She said-- actually, she had typed up and she talked about how they can't-- they can't even get people to donate every year for the farm workers' kids to get resources. Because the farm workers are so poor that they can't afford backpacks and just tools for their kids when they go back to school, right?
And they can't even convince most vegans with money-- and almost always white. And I say that because data shows, for instance, black people have 9% the wealth of white people. OK? They're not interested. They're not-- but these people are picking the vegan food for you. They need help. And they shouldn't even need charity because they should be paid, you know, a thriving wage. They shouldn't be in these horrible conditions where they can't even-- yeah, all this stuff. Whatever.
So but that's the thing. Like that's where we are right now.
Right. Yeah.
She-- this organization, and there are many like that, almost always run by BIPOCs, right? Black Indigenous People of Color-- not getting what they need. You know? Because they're there to make the real structural changes and dismantle it. But that's the thing, again. So vegans-- mostly white vegans.
Right.
You know what they need. You see the data. Why are you still not divesting away from this or that and investing in that?
Right.
Right?
And I've said this for years now. For many white vegans, it's easy to replace cow milk with soy milk. And it's easy to replace those cute red leather shoes with pleather. But there are no cute replacements for white privilege. Right? And that's the thing where we get stuck at. A lot of the work that I'm doing and that I talk to-- a lot of well-meaning vegans who just don't understand why they're supposed to care about organizations like the Food Empowerment Project. Why should I care about, you know, abolishing prisons?
So there's just-- and that's where I get frustrated.
Yeah.
Yeah, just the work. And I'm like I don't get it, and I have to probably be careful with my own racial battle fatigue. But I cannot understand, is it that a lot of-- it's not all. I know there are many well-intentioned and good-hearted white people who are trying to make the change and they are willing to make that divestment. But there aren't enough.
Right.
So I don't understand what's going on in the mind, where someone is crying and understands the suffering, you know, that non-human animal is going through. Or the suffering-- the heart and the love they dedicate to a farm rescue.
But at the same time, some of them, they don't make that connection to what Lauren at the Food Empowerment Project is trying to do. And that's the part where I'm-- is it-- and that's where I'm trying to get more into the psychic, you know? And trauma and privilege-- what's going on here? And that's the part where it gets a little difficult for me as a consultant and trainer.
Yeah.
You know, there seems to be a point where some people just get stuck.
Right.
And I'm like, I think that's it. I think there's-- I didn't even know-- and I'm trying to use my words wisely. There is-- I should get their information. I was on LinkedIn the other day, and there's this woman, she's trying to do a 12-step program for white people and racism. And she's using-- that she's framing it in terms of addiction. She got a lot of slack about it.
But I was like, hm, maybe I need to also look at it from a different frame. So is there something-- because you can be addicted to anything. So you can tell someone who has a chemical addiction, you know, you can't do this because you're hurting yourself, you're hurting your family. It doesn't matter what you say and the facts. You know, there's something that's happening in terms of addiction, right? Nothing you can say or do is going to have that person change. There has to be other things that have to help.
So she's kind of-- she's theorizing that maybe, for many, that racism is an addiction. So she [AUDIO OUT] she's going to approach it-- oops. [AUDIO OUT]
I didn't realize the phone could call, come in. So anyway, I really am trying to understand it. Because I know, you know, in itself addiction is controversy. And to parallel racism as the same as someone who has an opiate addiction, I'm not saying it's the same. I'm just trying to figure out-- you know, just different-- is it possible that someone could be addicted to that? The power that you get? The privileges that you get? No matter how much, you know, maybe rationally they know they shouldn't do it. But what's going on?
So we're talking about-- before I was talking about trauma. And then this therapist is talking about addiction. So I'm just trying to-- I'm trying to figure out just new ways to understand what the impediments are and figure out in a way that is not necessarily going to be something that everyone agrees with. Because talking about both trauma and addiction outside of--
You know, trauma is usually like veterans' trauma, right? A lot about PTSD, and we're looking at military vets. And with addiction-- especially currently now in United States, opiate-- opiate-- is that what it's called? Sorry if I'm using the wrong word. The addiction with opioids. Opioids?
Right. Opioids, yeah.
Yeah. So I know that can be. But I think it's worth a try to figure out that part. Because that's what I don't understand is that-- you see the suffering, you see it with human beings. So what's going on here where you're like, I don't care. I don't want to-- you know, as long as I get my vegan food, I don't care.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are so many important things that you're raising. And I'm thinking about like the time and all of the things that we could be talking about.
So kind of just like bring it full circle-- and you've kind of been speaking to this already a little bit. When you think of the vegan anti-racist praxis, you know, in a future where we actually are moving in that direction, where we're able to move beyond those stuck places, what do you think is the most-- what is the manifestation of that? What is the most important thing for people to really understand to be moving in that direction of an actual vegan, anti-racist praxis?
Yeah, okay. So I'm still trying to figure that out as I'm working with and toward it. But one of the things that I want to put out is that, you're not actually losing anything. You're losing something that was part of a particular paradigm that you were maybe invested in. But there are so many other different ways to live and frame life.
So I think to kind of get over the notion that it's like either this or nothing.
Right.
And that's probably not the best analogy, but I just-- I would love to read the actual journal articles, the journal entries, of white slave owning men and women. And the white America who was like, you know, supporting antebellum slavery, whether covertly or overtly. You know, what were they freaking out about? Like, what will the future be if we don't have antebellum as an institution? We're all going to die! Everything is going to fall apart!
So I'm just trying to get people to think that, everything isn't going to fall apart. You're not going to really-- you're not going to lose out on, you know, better possibilities. You may not be able to understand that now. Or like, you know, think about that in terms of future. But that's the thing, is that what you will be gaining is access to the full humanity you never actually knew you had.
And it doesn't seem like there's a price on that yet. But for me, I think it's more important to actually have that more balanced type of way of being human than what is happening now.
And another thing I would ask people to really consider is, as you're moving toward that direction, whether you're a vegan or not, is to intervene, you know, when you know something's happening. And this depends on what your role is-- especially if you're an organization, you have to do in a way, of course, that is the least amount of risk. But then you can also ask yourself, what type of risk could it mean?
Does it mean that you're going to lose your job? Or does it just mean that you might not get promoted that year? Take risks. Take chances when you know that the outcome will actually be racial equity. And that's the thing is that sometimes we get so cozy with the comforts that have been afforded to us because of unearned privileges that we fail to understand that when we put some of those comforts at risk that we're still-- at the end of the day, even though we may have less comforts, our safety is still not compromised. You know? Our future is still not really that compromised.
So I think those are the things that I get people to do is just to-- I don't like the word brave. Be more brave and courageous. And like you have to. Like that's the thing. If you're looking forward to that equitable future, you can't be neutral.
Right.
And don't think-- don't think it has to be some super grand thing. Something small. If you notice something at work and like, you know what, I noticed that-- a lot of-- I had mentioned this in my leadership thing. I noticed that most of the women of color here, they have kids. You know? And some of them seem to be struggling. So can we actually look at our-- can we look at payment? Can we look at parenting support? Do we understand that data? Maybe we should see how we can support this particular demographic?
Don't be scared to say something. Say something. You know? Because I think that's the thing is that a lot of people are bystanders when they should be upstanders. And that's the thing.
And people don't think that something so quote unquote "small"-- I love listening to stories of hearing how something small created a huge avalanche of good change. It took one person at work when they first did that. And now everybody, you know, now we do pay equity. And we realized, you know, that we could afford the adjustment. And it made everyone feel like they belonged. And it created us-- it created a way for us to recruit and retain more diverse employees that actually could help us figure out all these other problems that made the future better. Like it's just-- yeah.
So I say to people, don't expect that you're going to make some huge monumental change. It's the tiny things that become the big things.
Right.
Yeah, and I think it's just like pushing through those discomforts and challenging yourselves with the discomfort of what it means to kind of lose-- quote unquote "lose" the privilege of being part of an oppressive system. Versus, you know, the-- I don't like the word privilege, but being more harmonious and more fully human, or spirit, however you want to say, in a different type of system. That you can thrive and grow with other people.
And, you know, putting those steps in place where it means that you go beyond just reading books. But like I said, doing those actions. Not just reading about the reports that, OK, I read about incarceration is high in the United States. So how is this affecting my community locally? What are we doing? You know?
Actually, I'm going to check in with the deputy and Sheriff. I actually am wondering, do we pull people of color over more than white people here? And if that is a problem, then how can I say that I'm not going to vote for this Sheriff or deputy the next time around unless they can ensure that. That's what it takes. Like you need to make those-- it seems small, but that's what we need to do.
You know, with stores that provide vegan-- you know, your favorite vegan restaurant. I mean, are they-- how are the waitstaff being checked? Look at the way things are. Does it get darker the further back you go into the kitchen? Right?
So in terms of people of color who work there, how are they being treated? Ask those questions. And if it's not happening-- I don't care if it's your favorite restaurant and you don't want to disrupt things so you can keep on getting your food. Say something, do something. You know, advocate. If you're in a position to advocate, that's what you need to do.
I think one of the biggest myths that we've been taught in the United States is that one person can't change anything, so whatever. Or you need some type of high leading guru to make change. No, you're the change. So do it. Do it. Check in with your favorite vegan commodities company. Are they focused on racial equity? Are they making those changes? What are they doing?
Are they sourcing in a way-- like I said, are they sourcing their almonds for their almond yogurt from incarcerated laborers or, you know, migrant laborers who are under the worst conditions. Ask. And if you ask, and then people that you know who are interested in buying the same things, you know, gather together as a community. Hold those companies accountable.
As much as I cannot stand capitalism the way it is, there is still, you know-- there is a lot to be said in terms of holding those companies accountable and saying, you know, we're not going to buy your product, or we're going to boycott this or expose you until you do that. Use that if you have the financial purchasing power to do that.
Check it. Ask. It's great that they use biodegradable wrappers and, you know, they're all solar-powered. But how-- what are their policies looking like? Are their internal folks of color and other marginalized groups? And then did they just open up shop in a place that's already gentrified? Just ask those questions.
You need to hold those organizations accountable. Maybe they don't mean it, but they're not going to know unless you tell them. I think that's so vital and critical. Maybe they won't respond to you the first, fifth or 10th time, but just keep on doing it.
My thing is, don't hold on so much to what you want the outcome to be. Do it because it's right. Do it because it's moral.
Mhm.
Like there are plenty of people-- like I can't tell you how many times I've tried something. I was frustrated. Well, they didn't listen the first time. They didn't do it, so I'm going to give up. But if you can shift and think, well, actually, I'm doing it because it's the just thing to do. And I cannot control the outcome.
Right.
At least I'm doing it. Who knows? You don't know how your ripple effect will be? You may not even see that effect in your lifetime, but be that ripple. It starts off with being a ripple.
And that's what-- if you want to start making those changes, you want to see anti-racism in action, it starts now with you as the ripple.
And people understand ripples. Like you drop the pebble in the ocean and the way it, like-- that's amazing, you know?
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I've been-- that I think about that I wanted to ask you is, I think there is a lot of conversation about how we embody anti-racism going forward and these changes people are making going forward.
But I wonder-- and you may not have the answer to this or whatever, but I'm just kind of curious about your perspective-- how much you think there is a need for, as you mentioned, earlier, a truth and reconciliation process kind of to some degree? Of where we're acknowledging the harms of the past.
Because I think there are some ways in which people are like, OK let's move forward. And let's, you know, embrace these changes. But it's like, do we need to talk about what has been happening in the past, and what hasn't been done, and what the consequences of that have been? Do you feel like that's an important part of the process?
And maybe like what you think that that might look like if you do, or if you don't. Just kind of your perspective.
You know, I think it is important. Because-- I didn't realize this until I really started. And I'm not a formally educated expert on this. But the book In My Grandmother's Hands-- hope I got that right. And it's really about the trauma of racism. And not just for black people, like everybody in the United States. The trauma informed way of understanding-- and really, it's hard to move forward when you don't recognize not just history, but trauma is-- what's it called, transgenerational trauma. Genetic trauma, all that stuff. So it's in the body. So you can't not talk about it.
I think if you can shift from it being something that's esoteric-- I put that in quotations because of allopathic medicine always needing certain ways of factual information to prove why they're going to do or not do something. I think that's important.
I think that part is so important. Because a lot of people, especially white people, really don't understand the somatic, the trauma, how they're even basing certain decisions that take away from racial equity on an unconscious level because they haven't-- they're not aware of that trauma. They're not aware of all of that.
So I think it's hard to move forward when you can't even read your body and how it's been impacted. Vitally important. We just have to figure out, how do we do it? And it's still new to me. I'm trying to figure it out. But In My Grandmother's Hands is a book that's doing very well where it's really focusing on a lot of that. More of a trauma-informed way of really understanding how racism has impacted everybody.
Like the way it's in the body and-- it's just-- it's so deep. So I think it's hard to move forward-- like Sarkofa. Like you can't move forward without understanding the past on every level, on every level. Including the psych-- the historically-- you know, the psychic--
That's where I like Frantz Fanon's work, the Algerian psychoanalyst. I think he's the only black one during French Algerian colonization really understanding the trauma of being colonized, but the trauma that the colonizer gave to themselves.
Mhm.
This was like 70 years ago. Like on point, to even work for today. It's hard to move forward. And what do we look like as we move forward if you don't understand that psychoanalytical piece? And not just like all in the brain and body. But then, how do we turn that into action?
Yes.
Yeah. So totally, yeah. But I don't know yet what it looks like. I think the whole thing is still new. In tandem with the United States still not having that national reconciliation and healing.
Because I think healing, for a lot of people, is just too wishy-washy. What's the point? I want pragmatic results and steps, right?
Right.
Business as usual. So I think there's just a lot of overlap because of the taboo nature of-- still talking about psychic mental health and trauma. But it has to go that direction. I don't see any other way.
But the way people respond-- I mean, even if it's not race. But most of us respond in a reactive way to most things based on traumas and triggers. So why would race be any different, right?
And a lot of it is, in the formative years, from ages 0 to 6, you learn how to respond to certain situations. And if you have some-- it's just deep, right? So I think we need to go there.
Yeah.
I don't know what it's going to look like, but we need to go there. And organizations and companies actually have to be structurally prepared if they're going to go the route of racial equity and understanding the traumas and triggers, that's got to happen for everybody.
Mhm. Right.
That's the thing. Yeah. Because all that anger and screaming at each other over the internet. I'm like, something deep is happening. I think there's lots of trauma and all this stuff. You know, because-- you know.
A lot of people don't realize that. My anger, hateful, vitriolic response is actually grief, right? So people don't even know how to read that. So how do you deal with that and move.
But it's almost 1:30.
Yeah. But thank you so much for sharing your perspective on that. I think it's really important. And yes, we are coming to the end of our time. So I just wanted to give you an opportunity at this point to share any last message that you want to share with people and just let people know where they can find out more about you and your work to stay connected after this conversation.
Yeah, so I'm working on my book Seeds of Sankofa, which you know of. I have my book, Sistah Vegan, which was the anthology of black women voices that came out on 2010. And we have our 10 year anniversary right now.
So Lantern Books is going to republish it with some updates and an updated preface from me. And what's actually really important about it is that-- I was ignorant, I'm just going to lay it out there. When I said female, you know, when I first proposed the book in 2008, I didn't know that there's a difference between biological sex assigned and gender in terms of labels. So I was using female and women interchangeably. Then I got schooled on that, so the title will be changed to Black Woman Vegans.
To acknowledge that it'll be talking about gender. And so that comes out in the fall. And then, you know, if you-- just like what you hear about what I'm talking about in terms of more intersectional holistic approaches to racial equity. Whether you're individual who wants coaching through this, whether you're vegan or not, or you're an organization, or a company, you know, you can contact me at
[email protected]. S as in Sam, I, S as in Sam, T as in Tom, A, H, V as in Victor, E as in Egg, G as in Girl, A as in Apple, N as in Nancy at gmail.com to contact me.
And I'm also giving a webinar again that's focused on racial inclusion in a plant based food sector. So I gave it last year and it did really well. I'm giving again on September 26th. It's a Saturday. So if you're interested in that, you can contact me. I have individual rates and organization rates. And if you can't afford it, I do scholarships.
[CHILD SCREAMING]
So I'm sorry about that. I have a three-year-old who is screaming for me.
It's OK.
So contact me. Or if you're interested in anything-- I say this a lot. I want people to contact me and engage with me about the work I'm doing and share feedback. Because that's how I grow.
Right.
I actually don't get a lot of people contacting me after. So if I don't respond, it's because I have four kids. I'm trying to home school them and run a business. But I will respond.
So please do reach out to me. I don't work for free. So if you want me to do like consulting work. I'll get long emails-- I have to say, primarily from white people. Like, I know you're busy but can you-- and then like this list of stuff. I'm like, I don't-- I don't work for free!
So if you want me in a consulting capacity or training capacity, these are my fees. So I'm just going to be straight up on that.
But I am offering right now mentorship for BIPOCs-- Black Indigenous People of Color. Over the last three months, a lot of people have been writing me saying they just really-- they want to talk to me, they need support because of racial battle fatigue.
Right.
I'm doing that pro bono. Like that's what I do. That's what we do as a community. So I don't charge for that. So I've been doing that. So if you feel like, oh my gosh, I really need emotional support but also professional support, and you're a black indigenous person of color, I've been doing that.
And so far, it's been primarily women and femme and non-binary people of color who have been contacting me. And we're just talking and just supporting each other. So that's really important. OK?
And I'm on Marco Polo if you want to do that. Or just like regular Google Meet.
Awesome. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much again for your work, for your time, for the conversation, of course. And I mean, I think your ongoing presence and scholarship has really propelled this movement forward in meaningful and necessary ways.
So we're really grateful for you sharing this time with us. And especially, I know you have your kids that are wanting your attention. So thank you for that.
And just to wrap up, to our audience, as always, thank you all so much for joining us and for your support. I really encourage you to look more into Dr. Harper, to reach out in the ways that she mentioned. And if you haven't already, visit our website, farmsanctuary.org. You'll find more information there about our next Sanctuary Speakers series event.
So that does it for our conversation today. Thank you all so much for tuning in. Stay healthy and safe out there, please.
Bye.
Bye. Thanks, everyone.